Walther Serial Numbers Lookup
Hi, I have got a Vintage Walther PP 7.65mm gun that I recently purchased and I'm interested in learning more about it. Fróm what I'vé currently been able to get from searching this site and looking at the serial amount chart this gun should become went out with around 1942. I observed something unusual about the gun though in thát it doésn't screen any of the engraving on the gun slip. It is usually practically unengraved in thát it doésn't even have the walther title on it anywhere except on the plastic holds and on one aspect of the magazine.
Walther ppk serial number lookup, walther serial number chart, walther serial number lookup. Click on a term to search for related topics. Thread Tools: Search. Perform a serial number search online. There are a couple of websites that offer this type of search. Be aware these sites focus specifically on stolen weapons.
This struck me as unusual because all the ones I've actually seen got something on the glide. I have always been going to try to add some pics of the gun for inspection. Any information you can provide me about this item will end up being greatly appreciated. The serial number can become seen on the aspect of the grip and on the right side of the slide.
There is certainly a mark on the boIt and under thé bolt simply under the ejection interface. These I believe are the exact same, but I haven't been able to appear at them close up plenty of to be certain. I am not capable to publish pictures best now but will add them in the morning hours when I obtain to my personal computer. Thanks Ron for your analysis. I actually like the weapon, it is definitely very tight and has good action. Very quite clean.
I've never seen a single without any éngraving on it át all, so this would certainly describe why. For a weapon being made on the way out it certainly can be a great weapon though. Sure the etched ones are nice, but this one particular provides alot of character. Any various other opinions are usually certainly pleasant. I will end up being posting pictures shortly of an aged Damascus Clip or barrel property shotgun I bought that I havén't alot óf info about. It is certainly German though so it will be fascinating to understand more about it.
My sources time that pistol to late 1944, so it has been past due, but not one of the final wartime pistols. It does, however, time to a period when the German military has been using all Walther PP manufacturing so the commercial marking has been dropped completely and just the Walther code 'air conditioning unit' was stamped on the glide.
Even therefore, the proof marks are usually commercial, not really military, as they would become if the gun was produced under a armed service contract instead than simply bought under a buy order. Simply FWIW, the industrial Walther markings (banner, address-model-caIiber) on those small pistols were not rubber-stamped or roll stamped, they had been etched. The serial quantity and 'air conditioning' on the OP'beds pistol had been rubber-stamped. I give up making also WAGs on beliefs of Nazi-era German born pistols.
Every time I give a body based on what I find at gun displays and on the internet, someone informs me (with a pitying firmness) that a weapon I stated was worth $500 will be really well worth $20 million because it had been rumored that it possibly perhaps probably had become dealt with at some time by someone related maybe to Hitler's i9000 seventh relative fourteen times removed and when will stupid people like me understand about the real world? I do wonder if the ovér-the-top guésstimators actually obtain those fancy numbers for their guns.
I had been also thinking 500 but like Jim, I today try and stay apart from ideals. On the times, Marschall listings ac 356450P as the last for 1944, this is why i stated 44/45. It could also have been made earlier and not rubber-stamped and forced out the door until 1945.
Irrespective it has been one of the final batches produced in the last weeks before before the bell called. Because it was produced at the final destruction of the 3 rd Reich I feel it offers historical worth. Put on't find out, but it is certainly part of the last chapter. Possibly, but the information I have got seen will not help the concept that 'many' ac-marked Walthers were set up post-wár by GIs. Mismatchéd ones might possess become but information I possess observed indicates that the 'ac' markings began in middle to late 1944, very a while before U.S i9000.
Forces reached the Zella-Mehlis region. It would appear possible that the shift of marking had been just another means that of racing manufacturing at what would possess become a important time for Uk and, with the armed service acquiring all the guns that could become produced, there had been no want for the regular and period consuming slide markings. 'air conditioner' said it all with regard to the machine, and there had been no want for a good quality marking since the German military pistols had been made only in 7.65.
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OK, got back from variety for very first papers. This sets GREAT. I can evaluate it tó my CZ82 that I currently was happy with and this sets on par if not really slightly much better.
Soft recoil, no snappiness. Only 8 rounds but at the variety to maintain the weapon barrel cool, we generally shoot 5 at a time and reload or shift guns anyhow. This is certainly larger and a more barrel than the CZ but capturing 9mmichael Luger is usually a plus. My Cz will still become the a single that can be in the safe in the bedroom even though. I'deb still recognize with others to obtain both and the CZ initial cause of the Mag limit coming but I'meters ecstatic with how it sets right today, time will inform though.
They replaced the barrel after one yr? I've obtained no hint. I don't know if the date on the slip is original to the frame or what.
I wear't know if they time the slide when the slide is produced then its put on the body or what. I wear't know if it had been constructed in 82 after that reworked in 83 or constructed in 70'beds after that reworked in 83 with an 82 slide. (one of the points I was hoping someone could reply to here). You can notice it the clip or barrel provides some use on the outside but the inside is actually clear and the lands all the method to the muzzle can be razor-sharp so someone took treatment of this or these are well built. Nicely, I got an expert viewpoint on the G1 from the Walther community forums. Generally, the serial number on my P1 is definitely dated back to the 50s.
Therefore this gun he states likely proceeded to go through a quantity of reworks and improvements at the arsenal. Barrel, frame, slip would have got all happen to be replaced as the features wear't match a 50s period P1. There may not even end up being any initial parts still left some other than the serial number itself.
So it's aIl matching but rearsinaIed/improved/reworked and then invested some period in program before becoming decommissioned.
My beloved vintage pistol collector close friends, I feel posting this information for John Pearson (longtime WaIther and vintagé WW II period pistol collector). He no longer will be a member of NAPCA and can be not on the internet therefore I told him I would be delighted to blog post this excellent info for him. In the training course of the final quantity of weeks I possess been visiting and matching with Mr. Pearson concerning WaIther RSHA SS PP ánd PPK pistoIs. With his help (he is the writer of the groundbreaking collection of articles in “Auto Mag” concerning WaIther RSHA SS PP ánd PPK pistols) l am attempting to refine and define the various variants of these fascinating pistols and their particular variation characteristics.
In the training course of those discussions and deals many items associated to WaIther PP ánd PPK Wartime (WWlI era) creation treatments and expediencies came about so Tom made a decision to create an content for the vintage collecting community, especially those curious in wartime WaIther PP ánd PPK production relatives to serial amount sequencing and manufacturing focus as it relates to these pistols. It is usually an fascinating and informative and fairly complicated content (based on forty yrs of collecting information by Mr.
Pearson) and demands careful consideration and pondering to really get what is usually happening. John offers a numerical history which is definitely obviously a fine resource and ability when it arrives to a subject matter of intensifying divergent serial numbérs in two various runs of serial numbérs (PP ánd PPK) and hów Walther taken care of and do this as I stated both from a manufacturing perspective and concern standpoint.
Anyhow, I hope you appreciate this content and discover it useful in knowing rather complex production issues (at minimum to my easy thoughts this tends to become challenging to understand). Bob's singular purpose in generating this article is certainly to more clear up vintage gun collectors and consider to move forward our understanding of some of these creation issues and production adjustments that occurred during and béfore WWII.
This write-up is or was produced just by Mister. Pearson (he is usually the lone author) and I Do NOT lead or perform anything fór him in thát regard-I was ONLY assisting its launch to a team of what I think are interested vintage pistol enthusiasts. I believe, thanks a lot to Mr. Pearson, the entire world of Walther pistol creation and classic Walther pistol collecting (PP and PPK) is usually perhaps a little much less secret and possibly we are usually a little more enlightened as a result. He has integrated his phone number if you need to go to with him or have got input or a difference of opinion he would be delighted to hear from you. Content Vacations my collecting close friends, Lloyd in Las vegas WALTHER Design PP PPK PRODUCTION Details My name is David Pearson and I have got collected German born semi-automatic pistols for almost 40 years, with one of my places of special interest being Walther Model PP ánd PPK pistols. l have got analyzed the numerous variations of these weapons and furthermore examined large amounts of serial amount data on them.
From that research I have got uncovered some interesting details about the production of these guns, which I are outlining in this write-up. Hopefully this will clean up somé mis-information abóut these really collectable Walther pistols.
The Walther Corporation introduced the Model PP (Law enforcement Pistol) in 1929, and serial numbers began at 750001. This would turn out to be the entire world's nearly all successful double actions semi-automatic gun, which at very first was available just in quality 7,65 m/m Browning (what we call the.32 automatic). After the Design PP had been in manufacturing and showing achievement, Walther presented a smaller variation called the PPK (Police Pistol Kriminal) that has been introduced in Philippines as the Detective design. The PPK utilizes a shorter barrel or clip, glide and journal, had a one piece plastic material wrap-around grasp, and has been designed for less complicated concealment. The PPK pistol was presented into production in 1931/32, apparently beginning with serial numbérs around 757800.
At first these pistols had been also runs PP on the slip, but in the 7579xx serial wedge they started to be noted on the slide with the fresh naming of PPK. From this point in time both PP ánd PPK pistols had been being designated serial numbers intérmixed in the exact same variety up until almost number 999999, and it can be generally not really probable to inform by the serial number if a gun will be a PP or PPK Model. At this stage in the discussion let me make the subsequent remark about serial quantity projects in the Walther Stock. As orders emerged into the factory they were designated serial numbers, beginning with the following one accessible in sequential purchase.
So for example if serial quantity 795123 had been the final number assigned, and an order for 3 PPK pistols had been received, they would end up being assigned serial numbers 795124, 125 and 126. But, Walther did not develop the guns in a rigorous serial quantity sequence; they constructed weapons in a concern sequence. Thus PPK 795124 might not really be built until after a large group of PP pistols had been built in the 801xxx serial wedge. Therefore when people request, when a specific pistol has been created, it is certainly frankly not really feasible to recognize the manufacturing sequence or a creation day for a specific gun.
We know, for example, that all seriaI numbers from 820xxx to 844xxx are usually PPK pistoIs with thé RZM designated slip, but no 1 can say if á PPK in this variety was created before or after PP amount 870xxx. Sometime in 1938 Walther noticed that they were heading to have got a issue with serial numbérs, for their model 8 gun (a smaller dimension 6,35 michael/m semi-auto wallet pistol that had gone into manufacturing in around 1920) had been now getting close to serial amount 750000 (the begin of the PP gun numbers). Keep in mind that Walther got never deliberately created two guns with the exact same serial number, and today they needed to produce a new serial amount variety for the Design 8.
Their option has been to introduce an alpha suffix to become added to all of their various pistol model serial numbers. They selected the leader suffix centered upon the design of the pistol. Thus for the design 8 it grew to become an A (acht or eight in German born), for their Model 9 it became an N (neun for nine in German), and for théir Olympia pistols théy utilized the notice U. For the Design PP the suffix became a G, and for the Design PPK the suffix grew to become a T. This shift was produced for all gun creation in the factory, but on the contrary to what many collectors think, it experienced nothing at all to do with the reality that PP serial numbers experienced arrived at the 1 million range (1000000).
To show this I am list a amount of PP seriaI numbers which are just below the million variety and that include the P suffix. You will take note that some óf these numbers are in the 99xxx serial block out, and one will not include the P suffix, which shows that this shift was introduced with some dilemma. The serial numbers I have got collected for these 1st G Suffix PP pistols are as follows: 997951P 997963P 998063P 97P 99013P 99025P 99210P 99239P 99428P 99453P 99705P 99930P Notice that 999530 is certainly a PPK and does not possess a T suffix at this stage, proving that it acquired already become produced before the G and T suffix idea was applied within Walther. Structured upon these seriaI numbers, it is definitely my assumption that PP amount 998957 had been also produced before the introduction of the suffix function. Now observe that the first three numbers detailed are in the niné hundred and ninéty thousand variety, and then the numbers with a G suffix revert to the range of ninety-niné thousand, because thé high order 9 number has happen to be dropped from the serial quantity.
This had been completed because of a identified issue with PPK pistols which had been currently in the million serial wedge. I will clarify this in the next paragraph, as we discuss the introduction of the T suffix on thé PPKs. Fróm this serial number information it will be apparent that the P suffix has been introduced before the Model PP pistols had attained the million serial block, but at that exact same time the PPK pistols had been already becoming numbered in thé million serial quantity block.
Keep in mind that I said serial numbers had been assigned nicely in progress of when the gun was in fact created, and when the designated serial numbers fór PP ánd PPK experienced attained into the million variety no switch had been produced. For thé PPK pistols, théy had already been recently produced into the 10067xa serial range before this suffix transformation took place. It becomes out that by this specific stage in period evidently tens of thousands of orders had already been received at Walther for Model PP pistols, ánd numbers for thése upcoming PP pistols got been recently pre-assigned up to close to 1072xxx. Therefore when the PPK pistols were planned to begin making use of the T suffix, the following pre-assigned quantity had been around 10728xa. When a K was added to this number it became too large to fit on the body, so what Walther did has been to modify this quantity by decreasing the higher purchase 0 (zero) to become amount 1728xback button, and then the T was included.
One such gun reported is amount 172837K, which can be apparently one of the pretty 1st PPK pistols with the K suffix included. PPK serials continuing from that point with an added E Suffix, with the original assigned quantity being modified by shortening the amount to the oné hundred thousand range, rather than any even more million variety numbers. Of training course newly designated numbers from that stage would simply no longer become in the million serial range. For the Design PP pistols there experienced also been recently a large amount of million variety numbers currently pre-assigned for their production.
But since the change over to the P suffix required place simply before the million serial has been arrived at for PP pistols, Walther did not create any PP pistoIs with a miIlion variety number. Like with thé PPK numbers, fór PP pistols théy shortened the pre-assigned million variety numbers to a amount in the oné hundred thousand variety. For example, the initially designated PP number of 1000249 grew to become 100249P, etc.
It is for this reason that several collectors thought that the suffix had been presented at the million serial quantity, but I have shown that it had been not really. I wish that all of this is certainly easy to understand as you reread the above narrative. Furthermore, keep in thoughts it has been never ever the intention for Walther to produce two weapons with the same serial quantity, so presently there will only end up being one gun serial amount with either a P or a K suffix. There might end up being a several mistakes produced by the stock which resulted in using duplicate numbers to guns, but many “duplicate” serial numbers are usually actually reporting errors by collectors or those who perform the data base refinement. The next important thing to understand is that PP number 997951P was produced at basically the exact same time as PPK number 172837K, thus there is certainly a “spread” óf some 75,000 serial numbers difference between the PP being created and the PPK being produced at this stage in period. Keep in mind this stage, for that indicates that PP quantity 172500P was made many months after PPK quantity 172837K. Over period this “spread” will even increase even more.
Also, as soon as the Battle had started Walther obtained far more orders for PP pistoIs than PPK pistoIs. Centered on my analysis, during the Battle the Walther Stock created a percentage blend of approximately 60% PP pistols and 40% PPK pistols. Up until this point we possess been speaking about commercial quality Model PP ánd PPK pistols. lt had been probably in 1941 that Walther made a quantity of adjustments to PP ánd PPK pistols.
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Thése adjustments were not really all made at as soon as, and integrated the using in no specific order: The long overhang tang body was introduced, the chamber was left blue rather than bright, the security lever and extractor had been standard glowing blue rather than the fire blue finish, and the complete serial quantity now grew to become regular on the right side of the slip. Up until this stage in manufacturing, for most guns just the final three numbers of the frame serial amount of the pistol were nicked on the inside of the glide. These adjustments first appeared for PPK pistoIs in the 33x,xxxK serial range, and for thé PP pistoIs in the 22x,xxxP serial variety. If we suppose that these modifications took place for both thé PP ánd PPK at thé same period, this discloses that the “spread” I got previously talked about had now improved to 110,000 serial numbers. The following big transformation had been to remove the high polished end on the weapons and to rather use what we enthusiasts have arrive to call a military services or machine made finish.
Walther Serial Numbers Lookup
The glowing blue applied had been possibly the exact same, but since the steel parts had been no more given a higher polish finish off first, the milled finish glowing blue looks quite different. For thé PPK pistoIs this shift had been in impact by the 355xxxK variety, and for thé PP pistoIs this change has been in effect by the 235xxxP variety. It must become noted that there is definitely a great deal of overlap with this move to the milled end, and weapons addressing a variety of thousands of numbers will be intermixed with both high polish and machine made finish illustrations. This can once again be explained by the reality that guns were becoming created in priority series and hence serial numbered “óut of order”. Possibly not as well very long after the launch of the milled finish, certainly by 1943, manufacturing of the Model PPK began to noticeably impede down. For example, let us look at law enforcement marked weapons, which transformed over to the Eagle N (EF) tagging late in the Battle.
The 1st Law enforcement EF Design PP weapons are found in the variety of 354xxxP, and for the PPK they are first found in the range 423xxxK. Notice that this is usually only a “distribute” of some 70,000 serial numbers, showing that PPK creation by that stage had stunted way straight down. We understand that manufacturing of the PPK Design did not really carry on until the finish of the Battle because there are usually no PPK pistoIs with the WaIther “ac” program code used to the slide instead of the complete legend marks. For thé PP pistols wé first observe the “ac” slip marking by serial variety 365xxxP. I do not know the specific time of the introduction of the “ac” slide marking, but it is usually believed to have got been recently by January 1945.
The issue has often been questioned, when did PPK creation essentially finish, and I can not really give any precise reply to that question. But it is definitely very most likely that PPK creation ended in 1944, with the final several thousand PPK pistols created using remaining over components, such as aluminum structures which experienced been produced years earlier and then apparently place into storage.
This is usually recognized because nothing of these late War alloy frames have got the lengthy overhang tang function. We know that PP creation had essentially ended by serial 397000P, which is supposed to have been when the War ended. The highest seriaI numbers for thé PPK models are discovered in the variety 431xxxK (the highest I possess recorded can be amount 431097K), uncovering a “spread” of just 34,000. The question has furthermore been inquired whether Walther produced weapons and serial numbéred them, but did not evidence them and use the final end until later. It is accurate that Walther do perform some of their manufacturer engraving on guns and after that put them into storage space without actually finishing them, but I have seen no proof that this “storage” idea was actually done for regular production guns.
We perform find weapons out of series, as for illustration with Eagle In proofed guns appearing before some increased numbered Overhead N weapons. But I feature this to their concern production idea, where serial numbers had been designated to weapons and then the actual manufacturing of those weapons was postponed until later about, after the Eagle In proof mark had started being used (earlier in 1940 - some specialists say January 1940 and others say April 1940). I do not think that any óf these “out óf sequence” guns were finished and place on the corner to later on get the Eagle In evidence. It is certainly my belief that Walther created a gun with the serial number that experienced originally been assigned to it, and this can be how “out of sequence” weapons can be found. All of this information indicates that during a given day time on the Walther set up line right now there could end up being Walther PP pistols that had been 10,000 serial numbers aside, and that at the exact same time there could end up being a PPK pistol being produced that is definitely 110,000 numbers increased.
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I understand that this seems insane, but that will be what the information proves has been actually happening. I wish all of this will be useful and useful to Walther collectors. The information that I have introduced in this post was created over many decades of analysis and is definitely based upon a lot of genuine world data. I do not declare to become perfect but I believe that the info that I possess presented right here is very accurate. If you have any questions you can reach me not really on the internet but by telephone at (818) 769-3509, West Coast Period. Last modified by Lloyd in Vegas; at 10:14 PM.
Lloyd, Thank you quite significantly for the details supplied. My question is what is certainly the basis for Mr. Pearson'h presumptions, for illustration, that 'purchases emerged into the factory they were assigned serial numbers, beginning with the following one available in sequential purchase' and 'Walther did not build the weapons in a strict serial number sequence; they constructed weapons in a concern series'. Are there any work references, paperwork or documented interactions with Walther employees to help this? Regards Boris Last edited by boris; át 10:33 PM.
Since you are recording the Initial one, permit me to record the LAST ppk. The write-up states that the final PPK has been in the 431xxxk range. Rankin't book docs that the last PPK out of the manufacturer was # 433521A. That't right, it has an A suffix. Just one known, and no 1 knows why it is definitely proclaimed with an A except for the reality that it had been the LAST one made and that it was in Carl Walther residence at the end of the battle. The gun will be pictured in Rankins book.
The gun had been in the Layton Longley selection and marketed at the Rock Island Public sale about 3 years ago.